Mauser Guns Collectors Forum

Pistols => Model HSC Pistol => Topic started by: Like_Old_Guns on June 13, 2015, 11:05:09 PM

Title: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: Like_Old_Guns on June 13, 2015, 11:05:09 PM
I waited until the GB auction was over to post, but am convinced that this late war E/F HSc, SN 946817, is obviously refinished.  I'm fortunate enough to have several close in SNs, and the machining on the grip strap in particular, as well as the overall finish, looks nothing like the GB gun.   The auction # is 486183849 and it sold for $1,225 this afternoon.  I sent an email to the Seller several days ago telling him I believed it was refinished, but he didn't respond.  Here is the photo from GB that convinced me.  I think there will be a very unhappy Buyer when he shows off his new acquisition and learns the truth.  Does anyone else agree with my conclusion?

Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: Warbird on June 14, 2015, 10:51:46 AM
Hard to tell if it's reblued from these photos, Roger.  Many of the Eagle/F HSc's are in excellent condition with a fine finish (I have one).  If more photos are available, I for one would like to see them before attempting to pass judgment.  I saw the GB auction also but nothing special was noted.
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: 1914mauser on June 14, 2015, 11:24:39 AM
From what I have observed the police HSCs even late in the war have a better finish than the military ones. The commercial ones are also usually better looking than the late military. I don't know if the police are better than the commercial. Just MHO.

Regards,
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: Like_Old_Guns on June 14, 2015, 11:35:09 AM
Agree with both comments, always hard to tell from photos.  But, the way the grip strap is polished, the depth of the serial number, and the overall color are red flags to me.  Every late war HSc I have seen has the "ribbed" look to the grip strap from the way the machining was completed.  Here is an example of an E/F pretty close in SN that sold on GB a couple of years ago.  I also have an E/F slightly later with the same "ribbed" look.

Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: jcorl on June 15, 2015, 11:39:51 AM
My 947183 is "ribbed" texture also.  Having said that,  I have also seen a factory finished in an "F" that blows my pistol away.  It sold for almost $2,000 and I do believe it was not refinished at all.  I truly believe they made two qualities of "F".  I do see your point about the serial numbers in your GB photos that appear not to be as deeply struck as my serial numbers.   I like my "ribbed", light dipped, hard struck numbered just fine. 

Jim   
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: Like_Old_Guns on June 16, 2015, 08:58:44 AM
Jim, the notion of “. . . two qualities . . .” of E/F would explain it, but it's hard for me to comprehend why there would be two different finishes on the E/F HSc in March / April 1945. Two finishes implies that someone felt that appearance of the weapon trumped expediency of manufacture, and at that point of the war, I’m not sure who would be making such a decision.  I’m not trying to be argumentative, just debating to learn.  IMO, a finish like that on 946817 just doesn’t’ fit the manufacturing of that point in the war.
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: jcorl on June 16, 2015, 09:57:15 AM
I could not agree more with your thoughts.  Why would there be two different standards used on the "F"?  Plus at this late time of the war, the crude ribbed machine marks with a quick dip makes all the sence in the world to get them out the door and into the field.  I spoke to my friend in TX who had an "F" with a serial number just 20 numbers higher than mine.  His finish was just like mine.  I have another friend up North and his finish is just like mine.  Then I have another friend and his finish is high gloss early war style.  I cannot hazard a guess at to what was going on in the factory with that small quantity of police output.  It is most odd.

Jim   
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: Like_Old_Guns on June 16, 2015, 12:50:49 PM
  . . .   I cannot hazard a guess at to what was going on in the factory with that small quantity of police output.  It is most odd . . . Jim 
Perhaps it points back to the possibility that the gun is refinished!
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: jcorl on June 16, 2015, 02:47:43 PM
Once again, I cannot disagree with your assumption.  BUT, I do know some fine examples are out there.  Perhaps we can request other "F" example holders with high polish finish to report their serial numbers and see if a serial number range is found wherein high polish was the rule vs. our machined, ribbed examples.  We might see a pattern develop by asking others to chime in.  I have already noted my serial number and finish condition.  I would enjoy debunking or proving the two finish proposition for these police. 

Jim       
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: Like_Old_Guns on June 16, 2015, 06:01:57 PM
Jim, I agree with your suggestion.  Empirical data would be most useful.  Not sure how to proceed, except that I have an E/F example of my own to contribute. Is there any usefulness to "near by" serial numbers of non E/F guns?
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: jcorl on June 17, 2015, 09:58:07 AM
You were reading my mind. I wonder if a "rack" or grouping got special treatment and extra effort, regardless of the intended shipping point.  I know of one with phosphate finish.  Now that really puts a twist in the discussion.

Jim
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: Like_Old_Guns on June 21, 2015, 12:24:07 AM
Here are two close by, both with typical grip strap "ribbing" or "wash board" finish.  What does anyone else have close to these in the 946xxx - 948xxx range.
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: donp326 on June 21, 2015, 06:24:31 AM
Like-old-guns sorry no late war HSc's but your op does look buffed as the serial number show inconsistant depth. All my HSc's are early E/655 guns and are the polished type. I believe the original pictures is a buffed and reblued HSc.
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: jcorl on June 21, 2015, 06:49:16 PM
That ribbing looks allot like mine.  I may have a tad more finish on front strap, but not by much (perhaps 5%).   Thanks for the good photos.

Jim
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: pardt on June 28, 2015, 07:57:43 PM
I saw the original gun in question on gunbroker and my max bid was around $300 if that tells u anything about my opinion as to its finish originality.  Attached photo is my eagle f
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: Like_Old_Guns on June 28, 2015, 08:51:56 PM
I saw the original gun in question on gunbroker and my max bid was around $300 if that tells u anything about my opinion as to its finish originality.  Attached photo is my eagle f
Thanks, nice E/F.  No doubt in my mind about the GB auction. 
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: pardt on June 28, 2015, 10:08:12 PM
Pre98 has a eagle f that is # 946744 in very high condition and the strap is still ribbed.
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: Like_Old_Guns on June 28, 2015, 10:29:23 PM
Pre98 has a eagle f that is # 946744 in very high condition and the strap is still ribbed.
Thanks, I know jcorl is a fellow collector, but with all due respect to him, I am highly skeptical of his hypothesis that ". . .  [Mauser] made two qualities of "F" [late in the war]."  I just don't see it occurring in Feb/Mar/Apr 1945.   I can't see anyone putting in extra cycles for a finish.  As more evidence, proofs of Army Mausers (WaA135) were applied up side down.  The futility of it all must have been obvious.
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: jcorl on June 30, 2015, 04:49:02 PM
Yep,

That one looks perfectly similar to mine.  A quick dip, if a dip at all.  My "F" was surrendered in SCHWEINFURT just a couple of days after the war was over.  The Vet that captured it had a neat story to tell about the old German gentleman that was carrying it at the time.  We care for a little piece of history in them.  Thanks for showing your photo.

Jim
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: pardt on July 02, 2015, 10:44:13 PM
Attached photo is of a gunbroker auction from a few months ago. I will venture a theory about a higher polish and finish eagle f pistols that look original. Maybe Mauser had left over rejected parts from earlier production that they used to make up production late in the war. So you could have a few higher polished guns. Just a theory of course
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: Like_Old_Guns on July 03, 2015, 09:44:42 AM
Attached photo is of a gunbroker auction from a few months ago. I will venture a theory about a higher polish and finish eagle f pistols that look original. Maybe Mauser had left over rejected parts from earlier production that they used to make up production late in the war. So you could have a few higher polished guns. Just a theory of course
I suppose anything is possible, but the expanded [somewhat fuzzy] photo of 947113 looks like it is ribbed (not polished), just without any grip strap finish left, and with a deep succinct serial number. It looks original to me.

Theories, or course, are put forth to explain things, assuming they hold up.  If there were rejects of earlier high polish frames, why reuse them on a late war Police contract.  The factory was still making Army and Commercial models and it seems to me that the Police could be the pickier of the three customers and if they were rejected frames, they were rejected for a reason.  Seems to me that rejected frames would be used on Commercial, not Police.
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: jcorl on July 03, 2015, 06:19:33 PM
Looks ribbed finished with a fast and light dip in the tank.  Looks real to me.  I am at a lose about how some got beautifully finished.  That is just over my head in late war. 

Jim
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: 1914mauser on July 04, 2015, 06:48:51 AM
Production runs are done in batches. Everyone has good days and bad days. Perhaps it was dependent on the time allowed for polishing, whether or not bombs were falling close by that day, how reliable the electricity was that day, how fresh the bluing chemicals were on that day. Late war on the losing side all sorts of things could be going on. It is one of those things that makes the collecting/research more interesting to me.

Regards,
 
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: jcorl on July 06, 2015, 01:11:38 PM
Look at this 9071??, Police L.  If I had the complete serial number, I would share. Interesting tooling marks. 

Jim
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: Like_Old_Guns on July 06, 2015, 01:44:05 PM
. . . . Interesting tooling marks . . . Jim
Jim, I've seen this machining pattern on a number of other Mausers.  Here is a similar pattern on 929334. 
Title: Re: Late War E/F - Refinished?
Post by: jcorl on July 06, 2015, 03:26:29 PM
Thanks for the photos.  Tool marks look fresh.  Must not have gotten any buffing at all.  Thanks for solid photos. 

Jim